Lord Hereford’s Knob is, quietly, one of the best songs on CSI:Ambleside. Of course, every HMHB album needs a track celebrating English (and indeed here, Welsh) geography, and this one is one of my favourites ever. Plus it namechecks some old HMHB songs! In case you didn’t know, Lord Hereford’s Knob – AKA Twmpa – is a peak in the Brecon Beacons. Thanks Giles
See lyrics to Lord Hereford’s Knob
Ben
Think it might be ‘Pox of the Pennine Ridge” and I thought it was “could that be the Severn”
Well done on doing this though, long overdue.
30 April 2008
bug
It sounds like it might be “To the pots of the Pennine Ridge” as in potholes – there seem to be a few up there if you Google ‘pots pennine ridge’.
30 April 2008
chris
@Ben: it certainly could be “Severn”, and it would rhyme, but “seraph” makes a lot of sense too; someone’s going to need a better sound system than mine to make it out.
@Bug: yes, that sounds better, I think.
Thanks both!
1 May 2008
Ben
I’m remaining steadfast in it being “to the pox of the Penine Ridge” makes more sense lyrically.
None of you can stop me singing along to that…….can you?
P.S after googling ‘Seraph’ I reluctantly concede that point š
1 May 2008
Vince
I’m giving my vote for “…Could that be the Severn” because:
A) It rhymes with heaven
B) Twmpa is “near” the Severn and
C) I think the F-sound you hear (to make you think of Seraph) is from the backing vocals singing ‘Here”F”ord’s’ Knob
OK. so I was a million miles wide on Bad Losers at Yahoo Chess, but on this one I’m more confident.
Vince
17 May 2008
Geoff
I work at the O.S. and I’d just like to say that there isn’t a trig pillar on top of Lord Herefords’ Knob, only a cairn. I know it’s a bit pedantic. I just wanted to add something to the HMHB lyrics project.
23 June 2008
chris
@Geoff: One of my favourite comments ever.
24 June 2008
Geoff
…although I should say that the grid reference they supply is exactly right. But could someone explain to me why this song puts me in mind of the Incredible String Band? I’m beginning to think this might be their best album.
24 June 2008
Gareth
A single Seraph is the guy from the Matrix, I think; at least that’s what Google confirms. The Severn fits logically – you can see it from the top, on a clear day with the right drug – but since when has logic had anything to do with HMHB lyrics?
8 July 2008
Mr Larrington
+1 for “Severn” over here.
Note to self: go to bed, you oaf…
19 July 2008
Neil
That’s definitely the Severn. Listen at high volume through headphones.
9 August 2008
Chris
OK, I’m gonna change it to “Severn”, by popular vote. Although I bet everyone who thought it was “seraph” will now raise their objections. Or something.
10 August 2008
Ben
Victory!
Can you take another listen to my suggestion of “pox of the penine ridge” I think it’s much more likely than “pots”
Yes, it’s still bugging me!
10 August 2008
Chris
@Ben: You’ll need to gather a few more supporters for that one mate, I can’t hear that at all.
10 August 2008
chesneywold
your’e should be you’re, i’m sure nigel would sing it with the correct contraction in mind
4 September 2008
Chris The Siteowner
Read here how the great David Lloyd tried (and failed) to get a BBC local radio station to play the song…
9 October 2008
Giles Pattison
Agree about the Severn, but still not sure about the ‘Pennine ridge’ question. I’ve given it another listen and I don’t think its ‘p??? of the Pennine Ridge’ at all, I think it is ‘to the Pots, to the Pennine Ridge’. Hull Pot is near Penyghent a quarter of a mile from the Pennine Way (it is a big pothole). Hunt Pot is nearby and has a waterfall. It is described by Wainright as “an evil slit”. I’m inclined to go with ‘to the Pots, to the Pennine Ridge’ See also Spike Pot, Blind Pot and Eerie Pot and Penyghent Pot which has an extension called Better Dead Than Welsh.
This is possibly too much information.
6 November 2008
Simon
Pedantry alert – should there be a comma in the line “I gave up hope ironically for Lent”? If so, after hope or after ironically?
It changes the meaning quite significantly – if the former it is an example of situational irony (he decides to give up hope, and by coincidence of timing it is Lent), if the latter it is an example of that rather irritating post-modern usage as ironic self-reference (because it was Lent, I decided to give up hope, knowing that there is an ironic comment to be made).
4 August 2009
Third rate Les in his Burberry fez
Theoretically you could have a comma both before and after “ironically”, and if you have any, you should have both. If it’s only before, it makes the “ironically for Lent” idea a bit of an afterthought, which isn’t right in this case. As you say, one after puts the emphasis on “ironically”, as if the point wasn’t that he gave it up for Lent, it’s that he gave it up ironically, with the “for Lent” bit again an afterthought. Neither sounds really right to me though.
Hey – it’s the 4th of August. I had a dream then.
4 August 2009
Charles Exford
Hadn’t considered it before, but all four possibilities with and without commas are possible & “correct”, each of the comma-ed versions of course having arguably infinitessimally differing shades of meaning, or not, and the un comma-ed version being even more ambiguous, but still not very.
Which is always nice.
Funnily enough right now I’m marking English language assignments by German English teachers. Hee hee, the opportunities for pedantry are so endless that I hardly need the internet at the moment. What joy.
5 August 2009
Drunkenmadman
I just did a cover of this. hope I got the lyrics right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHe7CamE6lA
The arrangement leaves out a couple of bits (whistle solo and closing section), but I’ll be doing another version later with those in. This is the version I do when solo on acoustic guitar – when the closing section doesn’t really work
Chords will be published at my blog shortly.
16 February 2010
Charles Exford
Uncanny. When you asked the other day if you had any requests, this was the one Mrs. Exford immediately mentioned, but to be honest her major request is that we can see your fingers making the chords, and I second that emotion. Fretwork homework and all that. Please don’t hide the chords behind your wine glass, she says.
I’m on dial-up at me mum’s rustic bivvy for a few days (half-term and all that), so I’ve no idea if we can see your chords on this one but I sure hope so !
Ooh but if the chords are on yer blog maybe it doesn’t matter. Keep up the good work,
Exxo.
17 February 2010
Charles Exford
I just happened to need to check out the main gig venue in Hebden Bridge, the Trades Club, for possible hiring for an event, so I cobwebbed up some old reviews, including this one from hmhb.co.uk of a gig on 17/2/99. It gives a new meaning to the revenge-ballad element in the song really, and kind of explains the anger towards the _chattering_ classes.
“The problem is the place is run by a bunch of bearded middle aged southern dope-smoking hippies who try to impose a strictly ‘members only’ policy…. too many ‘members’ for my liking, who just took advantage of being able to get tickets and then spent the evening sat round tables trying to talk over the band – why bother! So we ended up with the ‘house full’ signs up and ‘genuine’ fans locked out. Bit of a farce. When I got in the place one of my mates said “no chance of getting pissed tonight”. I wondered what he meant until I tried to get to the bar. Two bar staff for 250 or so people! Bloody farce.”
27 May 2010
Lee’s Twenty First
Okay, so I get the “chevrons” and “paradise” references but what’s the deal with “All of our songs sound the same”?
14 September 2010
Third Rate Les
It means “our works closely resemble one another”.
15 September 2010
Lee’s Twenty First
Thanks Les but (a) I don’t think that particular insult(?) applies to HMHB in the way that it could do to some bands (The Wedding Present spring to mind) because HMHB songs are so varied and (b) I can’t see that it’s a line from another HMHB song in the way that the other two references are.
It just seems odd to me, that’s all.
15 September 2010
Dave F.
Self deprecating irony, maybe?
I don’t know if they got a review with that quote, but the boy Gedge certainly did & turned it into one of the best t-shirts I’ve owned.
It’s just a pity that it shrunk in the wash over the years.
15 September 2010
Lee’s Twenty First
Dave: I know, it’s still one of my favourite EP covers.
15 September 2010
dagenham dave
I would agree with Dave, another self deprecating line. the fact that the lyrics from the other songs fit perfectly into this one indicates some similarity in structure.
I also had that Weddoes t-shirt, one of their best I reckon.
I saw it as a bit of a pop at lazy journalistic clichƩs.
15 September 2010
Snowy
Good work putting this one together
‘Twmpa, Twmpa, youāre gonna need a jumper’
is possibly the greatest lyric ever written
3 November 2010
dagenham dave
Dave F – you may be interested to know that that particular t-shirt has been reissued by The Wedding Present.
3 November 2010
Third Rate Les
I don’t really think they sound the same either, but then neither do The Wedding Present’s, except for a small handful (maybe Interstate 5 has an acknowledged debt to Bewitched, but they’re both belters). He’s just gently making fun of himself because this one in particular has the same rhythm and structure as Paradise Lost, Keeping 2 Chevrons and indeed new song RSVP.
3 November 2010
Dave F.
Cheer D. Dave
Thank the lord they do them in ‘gut bucket’ size (to allow for the shrinkage, of course).
4 November 2010
Big Al
Does he actually sing “cuckolded”? To me it sounds a bit like “Kirkcaldy’d” which would fit the wordplay oft used in these fine lyrics.
18 March 2011
Hartychoke
‘Twmpa Twmpa you’re gonna need a jumper’
references the outro to the Beatles ‘I am the Walrus’ in which Macca says ‘Oompa Oompa stick it up you’re jumper’
11 October 2011
Charles Exford
Well they’re both referencing Jimmy Edwards really, a massive post-war star whose TV series made it a household refrain and who in turn was doing somebody else’s song from the 30’s – the original artiste has been mentioned on here before.
(but @ Jeff Dreadnought in the lists thread, it certainly has nothing to do with Shani Wallis)
11 October 2011
Vendor of Quack Nostrums
HMHB, The Beatles and Jimmy Edwards are all referencing one of those Music Hall phrases that passed for comedy in them far off, more innocent days. The Two Leslies laid down this waxing in 1935.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB-oKyA-Snk
Personally, I would rather like NB57 to record a version of Miss Porkington Would Like Cream Puffs.
11 October 2011
Dave Wiggins
So nobody else recalls Nigel coming onstage with a washboard at Ormskirk Comrades Club in ’86 then? Ooh, look at you madam……
12 October 2011
Mac
For some reason this fact on the BBC website caught my eye. Why is Hebden Bridge the lesbian capital?
9 February 2012
TC
You usually find a thrill on Blueberry Hill, but I’m sure there’s one to be had on the Knob
7 December 2012
MrSpecialPants
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Brisk-Bonny-Lad-Bob/dp/B001L8AHQChttps://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=brisk+bonny+lad+bob+jim
15 December 2012
Graham
This song was mentioned on Ramblings on R4 today.
14 February 2013
John Burscough
ā¦but then, almost inevitably, Clare Balding appeared.
14 February 2013
Dr Desperate
Not pots. Not pox. Pods.
http://www.moorlandscp.co.uk/Camping-Pods.html
14 May 2013
Exxo
š The teeth-chattering classes could rent a whole terrace in Hebden Bridge for that price.
14 May 2013
Phil Clayton
The cairn on Twmpa, a small affair in 1984, had grown to a 2 foot high pointy affair by 2003. When I walked up there this week the stones of the cairn had been spread about revealing a square, concrete block with concentric metal rings embedded in it. I don’t think it’s the base of a trig point, the nearest one is on Rhos Dirion a mile or so along the scarp, but did it once support a rain gauge in connection with the Grwyne Fawr reservoir built down the valley between 1912 and 1928?
28 September 2013
Alice Van der meer
If you’d only been a few days later, Phil, you’d have seen us with a little CD player playing “On Top of Lord Hereford’s Knob” on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob! Tragic, but necessary.
I’m beginning to regret choosing a pseudonym from the first song I commented on, y’know. It won’t be long before someone thinks I’m really called Alice.
1 October 2013
EXXO
And the last time I was up there, at about 2pm on a dry Saturday, someone was living in a bivvy in a sheep hollow right by the summit. Whereas I’ve never encountered such a thing atop Pen-y-ghent.
2 October 2013
Moretonian
I’m going to be passing Pen-y-Ghent on the train on Friday..will look out for a bivouac
2 October 2013
RastusFB
Whilst singing this delightful ditty to myself on my walk home from work today, I realized that all this time I’d been thinking the line “Although upon reflection, Iāve been a trifle green” meant that the song’s protagonist was experiencing jealousy when contemplating his predicament – i.e., he was green with envy concerning his betrothed and the lovely maiden. But another metaphorical use of the word “green” suddenly popped into my mind – young, innocent, naive. Perhaps he was simply chastising himself for being naive about what would/could happen when he sent a lovely maiden to stay with his fiance.
It seems to me either meaning makes sense. What say you, exalted pedants? Is our hero saying he was jealous? or just naive?
18 January 2014
Toastkid
I always assumed it was in the “naive” sense. Seems more likely that someone would realise they had been naive, rather than realise they’d been jealous.
20 January 2014
Chesneywold
Naive. Reflection being the key as per toastboy.
21 January 2014
ALEXRAMMO
This happens to be one of my all-time favourite HMHB songs!
26 February 2014
Chris The Siteowner
Mentioned on the Benny Hill page by Sober Chiropodist, but not above, is the fact that the geographical feature of Benny Hill does actually exist. To save you looking it up, here’s the map.
31 August 2014
Dr Desperate
Well spotted CtSO. There’s a picture of it here.
31 August 2014
dickhead in quicksand
“Oh! smother the kiss or be drownded in blissful confusion!” Steve Harley & Cockney Rebel, Tumbling Down (1974).
21 February 2015
dickhead in quicksand
It’s just been pointed out to me that Lord Hereford’s Knob is close to Fan y Big.
11 June 2015
AndrewLimphard
Always thought “Your brisk and bonny ploughboy is coming home today” was maybe “coming home to Hay” as in Hay-On-Wye which sits below the aformentioned knob. Just another reference to shoehorn in.
17 September 2015
Dr Desperate
Sorry, nice idea but it really is “today”.
The bonny ploughboy, by the way, features in a few trad arr songs, including ‘The Jolly Ploughboy’ (collected in ‘Sam Henry’s Sons of the People’), in which a pretty maid dresses up as a soldier to buy back her pressganged BP.
He fares less well in ‘The Dewy Dells of Yarrow’ ( recorded by Ewan McColl as ‘The Dowie Dens O’ Yarrow’), losing a tussle against his nine rivals for her hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmh4PrghiYg
17 September 2015
Simon C
Should there not be question marks after “Who is it you are mourning” and “For whom do you wear grey”?
31 October 2015
Simon C
… and quotation marks around “I pine for no one, I just canāt pay my way” as those are spoken by the ‘maiden’ from line 2.
15 November 2015
Gurning tunnock
Now, I’m no professor of linguistics, don’t get me wrong, so I’m happy to be disabused by someone more knowledgeable than me but, in response to Simon C’s comment above about quotation marks (which appears to have been acted on), if you’re going to put them round that line, shouldn’t they be round the whole of the rest of the verse, as everything from “I pine” to “Lord Hereford’s Knob” is spoken by the maiden. For that matter, shouldn’t the lines “Who is it you are mourning? For whom do you wear grey?” also have quotation marks, as that is the question, addresses to the maiden, that elicited said reply? Similarly, shouldn’t the first five lines of verse two also them?
31 May 2016
EXXO
Agree with the above. Just cos we can’t be 100% sure what is and isn’t direct, quoted speech, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do the quotes when it’s 99.9% deffo.
More importantly though, I’d never previously noticed your version of what I have never had any reason to doubt as “Could this be heaven, could that be the Severn?” That’s what he sings, and because we all know how repetition works in lyrics, it’s a better lyric anyway, isn’t it …everyone?
Yes ā Ed
1 June 2016
Chris The Siteowner
Interesting, and I have no real preferences on the matter, but clearly there’s an inconsistency which needs sorting. How about we have it such that the songwriter’s comments are never in quotation marks, but others’ are? So in this case (I think) that means everything from āI pineā to āLord Herefordās Knobā gets quotation marks, but that’s all. What say ye?
1 June 2016
gurning tunnock
A very reasonable compromise. Although the argument can be made that the lines I’ve mentioned are the singer speaking directly to the maiden, so should be in quotes, you won’t hear that again from me. My main concern, that the maiden’s speech had been cut short, has been addressed. I can sleep easy. Thank you.
1 June 2016
KennyP
Has anyone ever compiled a list of hills mentioned in the lyrics? Reason I ask is that I’m going to be visiting a pal down in Wales and thought I’d maybe extend the trip and climb all the named summits. As far as I can tell the specific hills mentioned are:-
Scafell
Kinder Scout
Mam Tor
The Wrekin
Pen-Y-Ghent
Bulbarrow Hill
The Stiperstones
Glyder Fach
Glyder Fawr
Lord Herefordās Knob
Mount Snowden
There are also ranges of hills that get name checks, these being:-
Quantocks
Clwydian Hills
And two foreign ranges, namely:-
The Alps
The Andes
So……have I missed any?
13 June 2016
dr desperate
Benny Hill.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1247309
13 June 2016
dr desperate
Not forgetting Notting, Henman and, of course, William.
13 June 2016
Rubber faced iRritant
I believe the Orme is, strictly speaking, a headland. But as the song title implies, it has some slopey bits and so fits into the spirit of your endeavour. Having said that, I think you’ve already got your work cut out
13 June 2016
EXXO
@Kenny
See posts 38, 39 & 41 in the lists thread, and add the precious few that have been mentioned since, most prominently the marshy Berwyn. You will quibble and say that “the marshy” bit implies the plateau between the peaks, and in that spirit I would suggest including the summit of the pass at 486 metres (1,594 ft), so about half way up.
Good luck. The Big Issue and a baffling slot on a consumer affairs radio programme beckon some time in 2018.
13 June 2016
kennyp
Thanks for the hill updates. I took a look at the Lists thread. It mentions both Scafell and Scafell Pike. I know Scafell is namechecked in Doreen, but can’t think where Scafell Pike itself gets a mention?
I’ve also decided to stick with specific named hills, which rules out the Orme, the Quantocks (though I might still check them out obviously), the South Downs, the Clwydian Hills, the Pennine Ridge and the Berwyns. Which leaves (unless I’ve missed any):-
Scafell
Kinder Scout
Mam Tor
The Wrekin
Pen-Y-Ghent
Bulbarrow Hill
The Stiperstones
Glyder Fach
Glyder Fawr
Lord Herefordās Knob
Snowdon
14 June 2016
EXXO
Most people telling you they are walking up ‘Scafell’ will be setting out to climb England’s highest peak and will just miss off the ‘Pike.’ Anyway from one to the other willl take you about 15 minutes while you’re up there, so surely you’ll want to tick it off.
Similar story for the Orme really. I was only humouring potential pedants when I mentioned the Little Orme in my list.
You might be putting the baffling Radio 4 appearance at risk here.
(though Clare Balding would probably still have you)
14 June 2016
Kennyp
Agreed re the two Scafells, but given the high standard of pedantry here I thought the non Pike one was the more likely. But yes, does make sense to both.
I honk the Ormes will have to wait till someone compiles a list of HMHB coastal references (it’s surely only a matter of time).
Clare Balding will have to wait. I’m going to give Julia Bradbury first refusal.
14 June 2016
Kennyp
The “honk” should of course have been “think”.
14 June 2016
EXXO
If anyone does manage to persuade 50 sea cadets to sail to every coastal feature mentioned by HMHB (including hills), I’ll happily chuck in. Might even go to 80% of the extortionate price of a Big Issue. I’ll do the list.
14 June 2016
dickhead in quicksand
“To the east Brokeback Mountain, to the west, Benny Hill”
There’s either one comma too many or one too few there…
I guess you’re right! I vote for one too few ā CtSO)
26 June 2018
Majenko
I’d prefer: āTo the east, Brokeback Mountain; to the west, Benny Hillā
Or maybe:
āTo the east: Brokeback Mountain; to the west: Benny Hillā
But that’s just me…
15 October 2018
dR Desperate
@DinQ: Cockney Rebel (post 56 above) are perhaps a less likely source for “drowning in bliss” than the Welsh poet W H Davies, most famous for ‘The Autobiography of a Super-Tramp’ and his poem ‘Leisure’ (“What is this life if, full of care, We have no time to stand and stare.”)
His poem ‘The Flood’ has the lines:
“No eye can see my face,
Howe’er it watch the place
Where I half drown in bliss.”
15 October 2018
Poopleby
Late arrival, sorry. I went up Lord Hereford’s Knob today (well up to the car park) and felt inspired to check the discussion page. KennyP, hasn’t your list expanded since Mod. Diff. Vdiff. Hard Severe with the addition of Cloggy? In fact, on June 14th I suspect you were quietly ignoring it. I don’t think Yosemite qualifies as it’s not the name of a hill or mountain. Good luck on Cloggy, though.
28 January 2019
Alice van der meer
You made the car park but not the top? You’d better have a good excuse – it’s only a few hundred yards and almost no climb at all, easiest hill I’ve ever bagged!
28 January 2019
Poobleby
Yes, I only went there to eat my lunch!
28 January 2019
EXXO
Well to be fair, rather than a comparatively easy hill, you did bag the superlatively highest road in Wales and therefore the highest official car park. Respect. Did you see any of the wild ponies? And did you descend via Three Cocks?
A few years ago there was a Flickr group or something called “Half Man Half Biscuit Towns” where someone had gone all the way to Hay, and beyond, in a Trabant I seem to remember, on a pilgrimage to the Knob but only got as far as the car park for Hay Bluff, posting a photo of that hill instead. Oops.
The opening shots of ‘An American Werewolf in London’ roam around from the Knob car park at the start, to the Bluff one at the end of the scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ry4IvzZn2s
I have sort of wondered if that scene, using the Black Mountains instead of the Yorkshire Moors, maybe sewed a seed long ago in Mr. B’s imagination that was to emerge as a song spanning the Knob and the Pennines.
28 January 2019
Poobleby
Wild ponies, yes. Plus a biting wind (not crying Joyce) and stunning views. Three Cocks, no. Just me.
28 January 2019
Alice van der meer
The stuff you learn on here!
A couple of years ago I took said road to Llanthony Priory which I’d first visited in 1884 as a scout (first place I ever saw Hedgehog flavour crisps, and Brains beer) – how our scoutmaster got the coach up that far is beyond me. Proper “takes the O out of country lane” lane.
I posted a few pics in that group – though not the Trabbi one. And I’ve just bought a book online from the Old Cinema Bookshop in Hay…
29 January 2019
Alice van der meer
1984! I’m not that old!
29 January 2019
Transit full of keith
I remember Hedgehog crisps, and the feeling, aged ten, that they were some kind of dangerous, illicit treat… But they were really just smoky bacon in a different bag, weren’t they?
29 January 2019
Transit full of keith
I remember Hedgehog crisps, and the feeling, aged ten, that they were some kind of dangerous, illicit treat… But they were really just smoky bacon in a different bag, weren’t they?
29 January 2019
Alice van der meer
I’m pretty certain they were chicken in a different bag.
30 January 2019
SO224350
Regarding letter 8 from correspondent GEOFF of 24 June 2008, admittedly I am a little late to Daliās party on this and I hesitate to question information provided by an expert, but the grid reference for the top of Lord Herefordās Knob is, by my reckoning, SO225350. The grid ref SO224350 is approximately 100 metres closer to Benny Hill and 100 metres further away from Brokeback Mountain. But as this is my first posting to this august website, to show due respect to the work of NB57, I have chosen SO224350 as my moniker.
7 June 2019
Captain bligh
There is no trigpoint on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob! You lied to me. You lied to me on your posters!
15 September 2019
EXXO
You’d need one if Twmpa was about 6 metres higher, or if either Rhos Dirion or Hay Bluff were about 9-10 metres lower.
15 September 2019
Michael
Was up LHK in May and can confirm I did need a jwmpa. Bloody hail!
29 June 2021
Regurmez
Is there a reason why “Two Chevrons Apart” is capitalised? If it was a reference to the song title I’d have expected “Keeping” to follow suit.
14 April 2022
EXXO
Good point again Reg. I’ve just noticed too in the introduction, that it should be either “in the Brecon Beacons National Park” or preferably “in the Black Mountains” (one of four ranges in the national park, only one of which is the Brecon Beacons).
14 April 2022
Jimmy clitheroe junior
Had always thought hope meant the village of Hope.
Whilst close to but not in Yorkshire and the Pennines, āgiving upā Hope would fit in with the songās theme of reluctant resettlement. .
2 June 2022
EXXO
So he’s moving to Lent, essentially an area of Burnham, on the A4 by Slough in Berks? Some definite irony there. But unfortunately not as funny or ironic as giving up actual hope for actual Lent.
3 June 2022
The harbinger of nothing
This is probably very obvious and I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me before, but whilst revisiting this classic (in my head) earlier, I realised that the word “gay” in this song may refer not only to the bunting and may not just mean “happy”. Did a revelation occur in the bivvie? Perhaps it was a clever reaction to the behaviour of the protagonist’s formerly-betrothed (or perhaps just childishly rebellious). It could help explain his previous “green-ness” though, and even his delight at tonight’s sitting-location. (This assumes the protagonist is male, of course; if not then the actions of the formerly-betrothed were much less surprising.)
I wonder who is being addressed in the line “your brisk and bonny ploughboy”. Is he moving back to Three Cocks? Could be awkward.
This will always be one of my favourite HMHB songs. If there’s one I would love to hear in a live environment, it’s this one. I don’t think there is a single known live performance though. If only Nigel didn’t forget his acoustic all the time…
6 July 2022
dr desperate
In which case, what are we to make of the of the first line?
(Incidentally, I note a piece from the Guardian’s Sports section in 1995 describes the Cheltenham Festival thus: “The guy ropes are taut, the bunting gay, the paint fresh and the hanging-baskets dripping with colours”.)
6 July 2022
dr desperate
The link at post 41 above is broken, but the inclusion of ‘Bob’ in the title suggests it probably led to ‘The Brisk and Bonny Lad’, a song by The Copper Family of Rottingdean.
(If you’re geared for stuff on Topic, it appears on their Best of The Coppers compilation ‘Come Write Me Down’.)
6 July 2022
Professor Abelazar Woozle
Here it is on youtube for anyone with their folk antennae firmly switched on – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc6m9V6JAoE
6 July 2022
The harbinger of nothing
Good point, Dr D, I hadn’t spotted that. I also hadn’t spotted that the backing vocals at the end refer to a he, I’d always just heard it as I. Must listen / read more closely.
I don’t have a folk antenna so thanks for making that link. A trad. arr. tune worthy of building a village on.
Perhaps “your brisk and bonny ploughboy” is directed at Lord Hereford himself? Why a ploughboy though, I wonder?
Incidentally, for anyone following the tennis: if Cameron doesn’t think Norrie Knoll has a good ring to it, perhaps he’d like to go for Norrie Knob.
6 July 2022
The harbinger of nothing
There is also the Brokeback Mountain reference, of course.
Given that the protagonist “found” his thrill towards the end of the song, I propose that the “camping out” was merely tent-related.
6 July 2022
EXXO
@Harbinger (wondering without a folk antenna in comment 101). The song mashes together a bunch of generic tropes from trad arr. folk songs, and ‘Brisk and Bonny Lad’ mashes into ‘The Brisk Young Ploughboy’ (see also ‘The Pretty Ploughboy,’ ‘The Rovin’ Ploughboy,,’ etc).” @ comment 97 Yes, all the innuendo you mention is fairly obvious. @97 and 101 again, “home” seems to be Powys if you follow the narrative, so he’s telling her (the Yorkshire exile who he first met in his native Powys) that he’s coming home to Powys, and he’s now able to accept her dumping him because he too has realised his sexuality is not as straight-jacketed as it was. yes, “camped” and “gay” are clearly both deliberate, as they both work both ways. As it were.
6 July 2022
EXXO
Soz, I meant of course that he’s telling his former betrothed at home in Powys (Three Cocks) that he’s coming home to Powys (the Knob) and that he’s over her dumping him, and he’s over the other poor maiden betraying his efforts to avenge her plight.
Yebbut the fatted calf, Exxo? The prodigal returns. It’s his family in Powys he’s writing to, isn’t it?
Oh yeah that’s what I thought. I remember now. I just haven’t thought about it for the last 14 years.
6 July 2022
Regurmez
“Touching the trig point” has to be my favourite example of the innuendo. The thing that intrigues me most was how he was going to avenge the maiden’s plight. It obviously wasn’t a quick process what with the reports of his cuckolding filtering through to him. Perhaps he was just going to generally lower the tone of the area!
6 July 2022
dr desperate
I suppose one might consider Brokeback Mountain and Benny Hill to be points on the sexual spectrum where opposites start to conjoin, with other placenames in the song generally lowering the tone. Even “if you’re ever up Pen-y-Ghent” takes on a fnaar fnaar tone if you’re that way inclined.
I’ve driven past Hollingworth Lake many times on the way to Todmorden (and Hebden Bridge) without realising that Benny Hill was less than a mile away.
Incidentally, should Pots be capitalised, referring as it may do to Pen-y-Ghent, Little Hull and Hunt Pots, caves (potholes) on the slopes of Pen-y-Ghent?
7 July 2022
EXXO
Plenty of pots within easy walking distance of Hebden Bridge for priced-out troglodytes to commute in from and serve the needs of the chattering classes. Can’t see how it could be capitalised meself.
8 July 2022
Professor Abelazar Woozle
@Exxo – I disagree there, Hebden Bridge is on the wrong geology (shale and gritstone), the only potholes you’ll find in that neck of the woods will be in the roads. You’ll need to head north up the Pennine ridge to beyond Skipton if you’re wanting a cave big enough to dwell in, though there’s plenty of room in the old stone mines of the Rossendale valley!
8 July 2022
EXXO
OK I shouldn’t have mentioned troglodytes, as the song doesn’t either, but pots yes if you take it in the broader meaning of collapsed geology – Hoo Hole, Clough Hole, Midgehole, Hole Bottom, Hebble Hole, and the area round Harcastle Crags if I recall.
I shouldn’t even have mentioned Hebden Bridge though, just that there are many classic pots (with caves or systems) further north and south in the limestone of the Pennine Ridge which (In a jokey song) would offer somewhere to live miserably, not just those on Pen-y-Ghent. I just didn’t get the Doc’s reasoning really.
8 July 2022
dr desperate
My reasoning was simply that she’d been driven out of Hebden Bridge, and when he went to avenge her plight he settled (as it were) up Pen-y-ghent. There are plenty of pots in that area, but also a few Pots. Choosing between the two would obviously be a matter of taking some sort of luck.
9 July 2022
EXXO
I still don’t get why you would or could ever correctly write “The Pots of the Pennine Ridge.” Is there a precedent with another noun that can be both proper and improper, used in the plural to denote “only the examples of this common lower case thing that happen to be named in upper case on the map,” apart from pre-existing proper nouns that denote areas/regions?
9 July 2022