Qualifying Group 12 in The Lux Familiar Cup – in which readers of The Half Man Half Biscuit Lyrics Project choose their favourite songs of all time. Voting on this album closed on Fri 29 April 2011, and the results from this qualifying group are below. Another impressive number of votes were cast (885); there was a clear winner and second place, and another song which should makee it through to the round of 32.
Qualified for last 32
1. Bob Wilson – Anchorman (13.8%)
2. Tending The Wrong Grave For 23 Years (11.9%)
In the race for the fastest losers:
3. Vatican Broadside (11.1%)
4. Ordinary to Enschede (7.1%)
5. Blood On The Quad (6.7%)
Much was said about the size of this group, but in the end only three songs polled really strongly.
smithsocksimon
At the risk of adding to the controversy, given the large number of songs in this selection, shouldn’t there be three automatic qualifiers?
16 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
Well, possibly. But the system we’re going to use for determining the strongest non-qualifiers shouldn’t discriminate against large groups, as it’ll be based on the percentage of people voting in each group who chose that song. And as we can vote for as many (or as few) songs as we wish, it’s quite possible for one group to bag all eight fastest-loser places.
16 April 2011
Charles Exford
Ten qualifiers from one group would be certainly raise an eyebrow, possibly even both of mine, as they would average at the very most 10% of the vote.
The results so far do seem to bear out the likelihood that the more popular choices in smaller groups will average higher percentages of the vote.
Statistically the sample is not large enough to prove whether the 3rd and 4th placed tracks in smaller groups will generally poll higher than the 3rd and 4th places tracks in bigger groups, and there are always other factors such as whether the 1st and 2nd tracks are runaway popular favourites or whether (as has been controversially alleged by some posters) the albums vary in quality of depth. But surely simple arithmetic dictates that tracks in bigger groups have less chance of qualifying?
16 April 2011
Vendor of Quack Nostrums
Is it too late to introduce a Single Transferable Vote system?
16 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
Nope, caught you out there, Exxo. The figures I’ve been displaying do indeed show the proportion of the total votes cast in that qualifying group which have gone to each song, and therefore add up to 100%. But the measure by which we’re going to decide the fastest losers is going to be the proportion of voters in each group who voted for that song. The highest scoring song so far, on that measure, received votes from 63.9% of the voters in that particular group (naturally it won the group and has qualified automatically). This then compares the songs which did not qualify automatically on a fair basis, as if they were all in one giant group.
16 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
oh, very clever solution. If I was wearing a hat I’d take it off to you. I was concerned that the percentage vote would unfairly favour smaller groups, while a simple number of votes cast would discriminate against the earlier albums when the level of interest in the competition clearly hadn’t reached the heights it has now.
We may still see some shock exits with this group, as a number of highly-regarded tracks do indeed fall into this category. Not surprised to see Tending The Wrong Grave setting the early pace, as it’s probably the only one there which could conceivably go all the way. Thought Epiphany would be doing better but then it must be one of the least well known tracks of all. Otherwise, the front-runners are not only much as I expected, but also much as I voted : Tending The Wrong Grave, Epiphany, Broadside, Bob Wilson and Enschede.
Always knew I had a thumb on the pulse of the nation.
16 April 2011
Neil G
This is, overall, the highest quality collection of songs that we have had to vote on, in my opinion. Editor’s Recommendation and Saucy Haulage Ballads are both examples of concentrated excellence, and the unreleased tracks Epiphany and Mr Cave’s A Window Cleaner Now are utterly brilliant. I have been forced to vote for twelve songs, which is ridiculous, I know. There should be three or four going through from here.
16 April 2011
TOMMY
No Worried Man Blues, Goodnight Irene, There Stands the Glass?
17 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
No, didn’t think we should have the cover versions.
17 April 2011
Neil G
What a shame. I would vote for Song To The Siren and King Of Rome as well.
17 April 2011
Charles Exford
Well, I’m not really bothered about this but will someone please answer me this?
Can it be a coincidence that even El Niño himself has been finding the target difficult to locate since January?
‘Cos if not an actual moving of the goalposts, that’s certainly the most surprising example of someone telling you deep in injury time that the goalposts weren’t where you thought they were, Possibly the most surprising since they suddenly told us about the away goals rule at the end of the 1972-73 Wallasey cubs’ cup semi final (it was snowing and the ref decided he didn’t want extra time).
Seems to devalue the votes of those who knew what their favourites were, or who voted tactically for one single track that was contesting second place, and favour those who (till now mystifyingly to me) seemed to be voting for anything they were particularly fond of at that moment.
As you can tell though I’m not really that arsed.
17 April 2011
Vendor of Quack Nostrums
Surely a bit of controversy is part of the game’s appeal?
17 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
Exxo: would anyone really have voted any differently had they known what the precise criteria were for the “fastest loser” category? Put it this way, nobody bothered to ask how it was going to work. Which is why I only just wondered – and made up the rule – myself.
17 April 2011
Charles Exford
Well as I say i’m not really bothered meself, but I know UKIP have already been had at least one angry letter from an Oxton resident who feels he wasted half an afternoon down the precinct helping with their “vote for Soft Verges and nothing else” campaign.
The UKIP spokesman replied that they felt they had made a reasonable assumption that the percentages given for each group’s fastest loser were an indication that’s how it would work. Moreover that if it had been otherwise shouldn’t the system have been clarified after David Conn’s comment made explicit assumptions that that was how it worked?
Let’s arrest a judge.
17 April 2011
EzekialpunchedDanBrown
Wot no Old Tige?
Not that I would have voted for it anyway.
The Saucy Haulage Ballads vote is gonna get greatly split here.
Oh and Vendor – nice one, made me laugh out loud 🙂
17 April 2011
Toffo
Blood on the Quad- would the Quad be Quadrant Park, a nightclub in Bootle during the mid 80s ?
Probably not……
17 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
If you’d voted for Soft Verges and nothing else, you’d have had the desired effect, fear not.
17 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
Next question then, in the apparent absence of a (ahem) Round of 16 – sorry, but I hate that description – what cunning plan to you have to whittle 32 down to the last eight?
18 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
Also, when do you plan to install an edit button so I can disguise my cacky-fingered typing?
18 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
Aha, very good, I see you’re too sharp for that particular cunning plan. The “Round of 16” has been duly instated.
I’ll experiment with adding an editing capability to comments: there is a WordPress plugin which makes this possible, but I haven’t tried it before.
18 April 2011
Ben Woodcock
I’m a bit depressed that Lilac Urine, Enschede and New York Skiffle have such a small showing. Oh well – I guess that’s why I never bet in the Grand National any more.
Tough round !
18 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
Righty ho, which just means, is it a straight knockout all the way or are you doing another group stage? You could even make all the groups a round-robin …
18 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
Hmm, I’d assumed it was a straight knockout all the way. But no reason why we couldn’t have another group stage, I suppose (four groups of eight, four qualify from each, maybe?). Perhaps I should put it to the vote. First past the post?
19 April 2011
ANOTHERSHITSEASON
Would have thought more votes for Lark Descending. Belter of a tune for me. One of the many highlights to my favourite ever HMHB session… the BBC Radio Merseyside’s PMS session from a few years back.
19 April 2011
Ricardo
Will the draw for the last 32 be completely random, or are qualifiers from the same group being kept apart as in the Champions League?
19 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
I reckon four groups of eight, top four qualify from each to a knockout phase, and yes, we keep qualifiers from the same original group apart. What say you all?
19 April 2011
Paul F
Feels horribly like the old Champions League format where everybody was bored to death by the time the second group phase finished.
Free draw – no seedings for me. Much more fun.
19 April 2011
Ricardo
I’d go for a straight knockout from the last 32.
19 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
Oh dear, I think I might have opened a veritable Can-O-Worms.
19 April 2011
Charles Exford
Pitching this one impudently short, so feel free to knock it out the ground.
For me, at this stage of the season, it’s more about the timing than the format. I mean the posts are coming down in the local parks next week. Surely we can’t have the season dragging on well into June like the chaotic fixture pile-up ot 1947? So let’s pack it all in so it reaches a climax at a fitting time of year. May is no time for another group stage. There’ll be a lot of talk about who’s got the easiest run-in, but at the end of the day the table doesn’t lie, and the luck has to even out by the end of the season. So howzabout this, then?
April 29th/30th Group Stages close & draw for round of 32 (perhaps could even be video-ed in the stands duriing the half time interval at a major Suffolk sporting venue?). Random draw. Cup classic. Probably best if even before the draw is made, the whole path through to the final has been decided (winner of matches 1 & 2 in round of 32 play each other in round of 16, same for 3 & 4, etc etc)
May 6th/7th round of 32 ends
May 13th/14th round of 16 ends.
May 20th/21st (FA cup final weekend) QF’s end.
May 27th/28th (Champions League final & play-offs weekend) semi finals end. May 28th could see special programming on the site: Cup Final It’s a Knockout, Road to the Final, etc.
Voting for the grand final thus takes place during Whit Week (secular if not ecclesiastical calendar anyway), and they’ll think it’s all over, but then wham, new album, world tour.
*****************************************
Meanwhile at Prenton Park it’s Tuesday night and gates are high. Loads of newbies in the stands, twelve thousand comps in their hands … tonight’s attendance one, two, FREE!
19 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
I think I prefer the idea of a completely open draw, no seeds, with the draw for the next round being made after each round. If it can be broadcast live on the Jimmy Young programme at 12.30 on Monday, so much the better.
19 April 2011
Ricardo
I find myself in complete agreement with Exford’s latest post, except for the bit about pre-drawing the path to the final, which could possibly be the wrongest thing ever posted on the internet.
20 April 2011
Paul F
I’m just delighted at his mention of Cup Final It’s a Knockout. If ever a single event could take you back to more innocent times…
I remember going to the 1977 edition at South Liverpool’s Holly Park ground (we lost that, as well as the final itself) and being a bit surprised that the TV coverage wasn’t live (this was a week or two before the Cup Final I think).
20 April 2011
Charles Exford
Ideally of course I too would prefer random draws for each round, but I added the tennis-style draw as an afterthought when I realised how much extra work that would be for Sepp, I mean Jules. I do think the element of videoing the draw would be great – it worked really well for an alternative world cup event we organised last year – but if it was me I’d agree to make one video, but not one per week.
Of course the fixed draw way would also give Vendor the opportunity to use phrases like’the bottom half of the top half of the draw seems to be the quarter of death as far as the early songs are concerned’.
2FF might have the germ of a genius idea there though. How about the Gideon Coe show every Monday instead of Jimmy Young?
20 April 2011
Charles Exford
@ Paul, if my comment took you back, then yours immediately gave me a compulsion to find out whether more teams who won IACFKO won the FA Cup or not. And the answer turns out to be no.
IACFO winners:
1971 Liverpool (lost cup final)
1972 Arsenal & Leeds shared (Leeds won final)
1973 Leeds (lost final)
1974 Liverpool (won final)
1975 West Ham (won final)
1976 Man U (lost final)
1977 Man U (won final)
I must admit I never realised that it only ran for 7years and that 1977 was the last ever It’s a Cup Final Knockout. So that would have been the only one I ever missed, cos I remember a real twat of a maths teacher keeping me in an extra Saturday detention for so long that I had to run the 4 miles home just to get back in time for the kick off. Can you imagine the human rights compo I’d get for that now eh ? Maybe I still could.
20 April 2011
Paul F
I’m also surprised 1977 was the last one.
As for the human rights issue, it sounds like the incident has traumatised you severely. I’d start spending your winnin…err…compensation if I were you.
20 April 2011
Ricardo
See, this is when the FA Cup began its decline, when they stopped doing It’s A Cup Final Knockout. The holders not taking part the following season, penalty shootouts, playing the final before the league season ends; it was all inevitable after that.
20 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
OK, far be it from me to irk the purists, so a straight knockout it is, with no seedings and a proper draw for each round. But I’m not sure about getting things like the Round of 32 done in a week, that’s a lot of voting. And don’t forget, many visitors only come here once a week (probably also to feed sugar lumps to police horses). I wouldn’t want them to be faced with a daunting number of matches to consider in one go.
Then again, it’d be nice to get this done in May, if only so the final doesn’t clash with the Big Event in June, which will doubtless melt down the servers here at the Lyrics Project.
20 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
I think it would be fair enough to introduce one tie per day and let each one run for seven days. From, say, the quarters onwards put them all on at once and run for a week. It couldn’t go on any longer than the cricket world cup could it?
20 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
(or two ties per day for the first two rounds if seven weeks really is too long)
20 April 2011
Third Rate Les
Ecclesiastical Perks is the one HMHB song I don’t have, because I have tried buying the CD and not found it, and also it’s not on Amazon MP3. And I don’t really understand all that so-called “torrent” stuff.
A startlingly strong collection, and I reckon Tending The Wrong Grave has a fair claim to be the best one (and another obvious funeral choice, perhaps, as well as I Know It’s Over, of course)
20 April 2011
Chris The Siteowner
Les: http://www.junodownload.com/products/1215005-02.htm is legal (I think) and not expensive any more.
20 April 2011
Jules
Tough round
20 April 2011
aiwacat
I was expecting Bob Wilson and Wrong Grave to figure prominently, but I’ve got to say, I’m a little surprised at the popularity of Vatican Broadside. I’ve always viewed it as an amusing little aside; not a track I skip when it comes on the iPod, but equally not something I’d produce to illustrate the brilliance of HMHB to an unenlightened acquaintance.
And yet, it seems almost certain to see off the likes of Quad, Enschede, Lark, Skiffle and Wedding…
21 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
you’d have to be quick to skip Vatican Broadside on your ipod. By the time you’ve got it out of your pocket the swearing’s already kicked in.
21 April 2011
Paul F
Stunned at Enschede’s poor showing.
21 April 2011
Matt
Totally agree Paul F. Its one of the greats. Maybe cos its an old song and probably not readily available to folks without the tinterweb.
22 April 2011
Third Rate Les
Thanks Chris – got that. Actually didn’t have Mountain Bikes either, although heard it plenty of times.
Quite surprised at how many people know David Wainwright’s Feet – my lame sister loves it and wouldn’t know what a Joy Division Oven Glove is if you smacked her round the head with one.
22 April 2011
Daryl
Ordinary to Enschede is wonderful. Gets my vote.
22 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
I wouldn’t be hugely surprised to see this section provide at least two of the ‘lucky losers’, now we know exactly how they will be determined. Several songs here have a remarkably high percentage given the size of the field, and I also think that the EP tracks particularly, coming from smaller releases, will tend to be better regarded as they are less likely to be overshadowed by other tracks from the same album. You may, for example, like Lilac Urine better than you would have done had it been on a full album. This may artificially inflate your opinion of some tracks, but on the other hand, as has been stated previously, the EP format may well prove to be a showcase of just the best stuff. Anyway, we’ll see what they’re made of in the weeks ahead.
23 April 2011
Chris the Siteowner
Your theory is pretty sound, Two Fat, and the top three in this group are very high up the overall table, so don’t fret for the loser in the ding-dong battle going on for second place. It’ll probably come higher overall than the winner of a couple of groups. However, the fourth placed song in the group is so far behind the others, I don’t think it (or any other song from here) will get a look in.
24 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
Suggestion for the first round draw (if broadcast live) – conducted by Bob Wilson, with the teams being drawn by Howard Marks and Dean Friedman. Plenty of scope for imaginative appointments for the later rounds.
26 April 2011
BrumBiscuit
Jim Rosenthal should also be present. Whether he kneels or not is his choice…
27 April 2011
TWO FAT FEET
Well he can take the draw for the last sixteen. The almost-illegal Elton Welsby for the quarters (preferably not in costume), and maybe Adrian-stroke-Sophie can host the semis?
27 April 2011